Insured patients can save money by pretending to be uninsured

I’ve mentioned countless times before that paying directly for health care can result in big savings, especially when seeking treatment at providers and facilities that cater to self-pay patients. This applies to people who are uninsured, have high-deductible plans, or who have more comprehensive health insurance plans that don’t cover a particular treatment or provider.

There is one pretty big caveat for the insured, however. Because of the way insurance contracts are typically structured between providers and insurers, the provider is required to charge the full “negotiated” rate they and the insurer have agreed to, even though the patient is paying the entire bill themselves. This creates the odd situation where someone who is uninsured will get a better price than someone with insurance, even if both of them are paying the whole bill themselves. 

I recently stumbled across this post by Dr. Dike Drummond of The Happy MD blog, which explains better than I can why patients with insurance might be better off hiding the fact that they are insured:

Hide your health insurance status and pay cash instead

…We may be seeing a time when the uninsured person writing a check begins to get a much needed break. This new pricing trend is causing some interesting ripples as more and more people become aware of the sometimes dramatically lower prices for cash on the barrel head. 

Here are two examples:

A recent article in the Los Angeles Times reported a CT scan of the abdomen costs about $2,400 for patients insured by Blue Shield of California, while the Los Alamitos (Calif.) Medical Center cash price is only $250. That is a 89% discount by my calculation.

Another local California hospital charges insured patients $415 for blood tests that cost only $95 in cash. This time it’s a mere 77% discount.

Now, there are some interesting rules to the cash discount game.

First, to get the discounted prices, patients would have to withhold insurance information from hospitals. If you tell them you have insurance, they will be bound to charge you the insurance company’s negotiated rate. Those are the up to 89% higher fees documented in the previous paragraph.

However, if you don’t tell them your insurance and pay cash instead, the cash payments don’t apply to your annual out-of-pocket spending limits.

For a 89% discount, I am pretty sure there are times it would be worth it to keep your little secret. If you are healthy and only need an occasional visit to the doctor you now get to make the judgment call on cash discount vs. paying five times as much and applying it to your deductible…

In perhaps the most interesting reaction to cash discounts, a patient who was unaware of the discounted cash pricing last month filed a lawsuit against Blue Shield of California for unfair business practices, breach of good faith and misrepresentation over her medical bills after she was charged $2,336 for a CT scan that would have cost her $1,054 in cash.

Blue Shield said it “cannot promise or represent that there could not be providers who will charge someone less out-of-pocket cost for a service than she would pay if the Blue Shield contract rate applies.”

There are two challenges that patients with high deductibles will have in embracing this strategy. Dr. Drummond mentions the first one, which is that not telling the provider you have insurance means it won’t count towards the deductible. For most people this won’t be a problem because they don’t usually get anywhere near their deductible amount. And paying lower prices as a self-pay patient will make you even less likely to hit your deductible.

But if you know that you’re going to hit your deductible in any given year, perhaps because of a planned procedure, it might be worth it to go ahead and just let them know you have insurance.

The other problem is that it’s possible that the rates for a procedure are less for insured patients than for someone paying cash. Usually this is going to be the case at practices that aren’t cash-friendly to begin with, so be sure to ask right up front if they offer discounts for patients who pay cash. If they’re flummoxed by the question and start explaining that they need to know what insurance you have before they can give you a price, chances are you’re not going to get a discount, and you’re better off either giving them your insurance information or finding another practice.

Assuming they do tell you they give a discount for cash, you’ll want to find out how much it is. That’s not always going to be easy (and don’t try this in the event of a medical emergency), but if you know the treatment you need or type of visit you’re seeking, it shouldn’t be too difficult.

Unless you’re dealing with a cash-only practice or using a service like MediBid, they’ll ask you for your insurance, you don’t have to lie to them and tell them you’re uninsured, just stay vague and say things like “I’ll be paying for this myself” or “my insurance isn’t going to be covering this.” This should cover you in the event you do wind up using your insurance in order to get a better price.

Then you’ll need to find out what your insurer will pay for that treatment, or what the “allowed” charge is. In the past that was nearly impossible to find out, but today some insurers will give this information to the people they insure. You can also use sites like Healthcare Blue Book and Pricing Healthcare to see what insurers are paying, on average, for procedures in your area or even specific facilities.

 If the allowed amount is more than the discount for paying cash, it’s probably worth considering keeping your insurance card in your wallet or purse and. You can still use your health savings account (if you have one, of course) to pay for it, you just won’t be able to apply it to your deductible.

It may seem strange, especially given the widespread assumption that one benefit to having health insurance is that you get ‘discounted’ rates at doctors’ offices and hospitals, that hiding your insurance can get you a better price for your health care. But there are lots of oddities in the world of health care pricing, and knowing this one could save you a lot of money.  

This entry was posted in Cash-Only Doctors, High-deductible health insurance, Negotiating Medical Bills, Price Transparency and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

74 Responses to Insured patients can save money by pretending to be uninsured

  1. DR. Mike Vasovski says:

    The same “don’t tell them you have insurance” applies to many generic Rx’s that can be filled at big box stores that are offering $3-$4 per month for select meds. Patients frequently comment, “you mean I don’t have to tell them I have insurance?”

    The pharmacy benefits companies are complaining that this interferes with their “quality assurance programs”. More likely it’s interfering with their profit assurance guarantees.

  2. No one ever has to use their insurance. I have heard from many that a drug discount card price was cheaper than their copay. It’s like your auto insurance. You can opt to pay for a covered repair yourself rather than report it to your insurance company.

    • Carol Betz says:

      Your comment says that no one ever has to uae their insurance. Is there a law or anything in writing that shows this?

      • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

        No, fortunately our legal system isn’t based on the idea that in order for something to be legal, the government must pass a law saying it’s legal. Instead, there would have to be a law that specifically said that it was illegal to not use insurance for medical bills if you had it. No such law exists, so it’s legal.

        • Michelle says:

          What about an insurance contract that holds you responsible for billing any claim from that provider that is contracted. Wouldn’t a contract between the provider and insurance company supercede the ability to “self pay” patients?

          • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

            An interesting question, I’m not sure but I suppose if an insurance policy requires you to submit all possible claims then yes, that might be the case. I can’t imagine any insurer caring enough about it to enforce something like that though.

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  4. Eric says:

    I have experienced this myself. I went to an in-network imaging center for a CT-Scan and found that our PPO rate was $2700 which would be paid entirely by me since my remaining deductible was $3,000. Fortunately, the lady at the imaging center quietly told me that if I paid cash and they didn’t report it to the insurance company, they would do it for $400. I just can’t fathom how a stingy insurance company would agree to pay such an inflated rate for this procedure. Isn’t the value of a PPO network the heavy-weight influence they have negotiating great rates for their customers? Obviously not. The silver lining was that this situation was one piece in the puzzle which led our non-profit organization to can our group insurance plan and put everyone in the organization on the Health Co-op plan instead. Our monthly costs are half and we like what we’re getting for it.

  5. Rick says:

    I just gave up my Medicare Advantage and went with straight Medicare. I learned that Medicare Advantage was more expensive for me in terms of co-pays. I lose my dental and vision. While I haven’t found out if my eye doctor will discount for self-pay, my dentist recently honored what my insurance would pay, which was $100 for exam, cleaning and x-ray. Next exam will cost $82. That is $182 for two visits. The dental plans I found cost $1/day, or $365 for the year. Even when I was working, my company deducted somewhere around $30/month for dental. My dentist doesn’t like me. No cavities, no root canal, etc. He kids me and calls me boring and laments that I am doing nothing to help him put his daughter through college.

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  8. Jerome Bigge says:

    It should be noted that in France the patient pays the doctor at the time of service and then collects back a percentage of what they paid to the doctor. I see no reason why this sort of insurance wouldn’t work here in the US as well as it does in France. Having the doctor bill your insurance, while convenient for you, adds a fair amount to the cost as the doctor has to have his medical biller bill the insurance company, then wait for payment. Which depending on the insurance company, could be as much as a month or two. If the doctor could get paid right away, no need to hire a medical biller, the doctor no doubt would be willing to discount his usual fee. BTW there are numerous businesses that will give a discount if payment is at the time of service instead of having them bill you.

    • gwoccmed says:

      It used to work that way in the US, only many didn’t pay the doctors kind enough to bill (or alternately family doctors not smart or mean enough to demand payment up front from struggling families). Too many such patients just pocketed what the insurance company paid them forgetting/neglecting to pay the doctor. Hence , the evolution of the current doctor paid directly by insurer relationships (called “assignment of benefits” in the papers you signed at your medical visit). With HSAs making the insurance involvement now a sham for any actual direct to doctor insurance (non)payment [it’s now mostly just a insurer repricing scheme and the patient usually pays] a return to a direct pay time of service system like you mention is a likely next (retro)evolutionary phase.

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  10. There is a certain irony in the fact that hospitals and other medical providers typically charge patients without health insurance as much as three times what they charge Medicare or an insured patient. This situation is getting increased media scrutiny, which is one reason why clinical laboratories and pathology groups may want to review their own policies for charging patients without health insurance. Self-pay patients include the uninsured, under insured, out-of-network patients subject to balance billing, self-insured patients, foreign patients and some others. Even under the Affordable Care Act, there will still be many (an estimated 30 million after 10 years) uninsured Americans. http://www.medicalbillingservices.cc

    • Thad says:

      My experience as a self-pay patient has been exactly the opposite. The cost is far and away cheaper than the insured price.

    • g woodall says:

      Some insurers (and government programs) insist they get the lowest charged rate but also demand significant discounts – then “regular” rates are inflated to allow the discounts – guess who might be paying the “regular” rates . . .

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  12. M Easterbrook says:

    Is “hiding your insurance” actually insurance fraud? If you carry a high-deductible policy, then state that you are “self-pay” is that illegal or fraudulent?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      To the best of my knowledge it isn’t – ‘self-pay’ isn’t a legal term, and I commonly use the term ‘self-pay’ to describe people who have high-deductible insurance.

      • Linet says:

        What if your pharmacy already knows that you have insurance? Are they obligated to file a claim with your insurance, or can they just give you the discounted price offered by the manufacturer?

        • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

          I’m pretty certain you can ask them not to submit it to insurance and that you’d rather pay the cash price.

          • g woodall says:

            Insurance is a contract between you the insurer to indemnify define losses/expenses in exchange for a fee – pharmacies and doctors have you sign assignment of your insurance benefit because patient used to collect the insurance and not pay – now they are in the middle – so long as you pay your bills the middle men “should not” mind and you “should not” be obligated to use your insurance “benefit” (which of course has been bastardized by discounting systems that don’t reflect reality)

  13. g woodall says:

    of course medicaid and medicare may be exceptions due to “participation” rules which prohibit billing outside the program (? includes criminal penalties)

  14. mike says:

    Kroger told me that they “have” to charge everybody the same price for the same drug.

  15. Linet says:

    I showed my coupon to my pharmacy and told them I didn’t want to use my insurance. They honored it. Hopefully they will do the same on the refill.

    • Tetesa says:

      I work in a pharmacy. How it really works is we have a retail price which we give to the insurance company. The insurance company tells how much they pay and then we negotiate until we each get a portion of the pay. However, sometimes insurance pays for all of it. If you don’t want to use insurance it is not against the law. According to hippaa ( a privacy law for pharmacies and other health care facilities) if you don’t want us to use your insurance you do not have to. It is against the law for us to force you to use insurance or notify your insurance company that you got a prescription without using yours.

  16. Diane says:

    Why couldn’t you just file your insurance yourself so it could go towards your deductible???

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      Quite often, insurers won’t allow anything towards the deductible unless it’s run through their network and repricing schemes. Hopefully this will change, and there may be some exceptions, but usually insurers look at it and rule it an out-of-network expense and therefore not eligible to be considered towards the deductible.

  17. Medicaid self-pay HIPAA policy says:

    According to the Medicaid self-pay HIPAA policy, what are the requirements and process on a Medicaid patient who wants to be considered self-pay or “out of pocket?” How can the patient be assured that their medical records are not reported to Medicaid in the near future if they do not what them to? I understand that all state policies are different, can you provide me with information on how to access this information.

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      I’m not all that familiar with specific Medicaid requirements, but to the best of my knowledge you’re not required to bill Medicaid for services if the patient requests that you not. I’d imagine a call to individual state Medicaid offices would resolve this.

  18. Judy says:

    The doctors I work for would like for me to find documentation to support the fact that a patient can opt out of using their insurance if we know they have it. Are we breaking the contract we have with the insurance company?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      You’ll probably need a good contract attorney to review it, but since people frequently lose or switch insurance plans, you’re likely going to be fine if you just take people at their word when they say “I’m paying for this myself” and not run it through insurance.

      • Billy Bombastic says:

        Ah, I think Judy’s question lets on to one of the key problems with health care costs in the country and major reason for the skyrocketing costs NOT involving the insurance companies. What her doctors are really asking is, “If I know I can bill the insurance company for MORE, can’t I do that and to hell with the patient?” In other words, GREED. Apparently the hypocratic oath does not extend to a patient’s financial health.

        This is why a patient needs to be very cagey about revealing they have insurance. Doctors are not going to tell you which route is cheaper. They will almost always err on the side of collecting the most money. After all, they didn’t go to medical school for 8 years to retire poor.

  19. Joann says:

    We are a chiropractic facility and truly want to discount for young children. We have been told that we must be in a “discount plan” in order to offer cash discounts. Our question that no one seems to be able to answer is, can we extend this offer to children who are covered under their parent’s insurance plan? We would be processing the children as self-pay patients instead of insured patients, and at a charge that would be much below any coinsurance or copay currently being offered. This is not to circumvent the insurance but to provide affordable care for a clientele that is often overlooked.

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      There’s no requirement in law that says you have to be in a ‘discount plan’ to offer cash discounts, perhaps in some insurer agreements however. I think if the children are covered under the same policy AND YOU KNOW they are covered then you may be required under your contract to charge them the negotiated rate, but that’s probably something you’ll need to look at your insurer contracts to determine. The trick is to just not find out whether the kids are on the same policy…

  20. Gloria says:

    Question, our physician is not contracted with patient insurance. Patient would like to pay cash. What if he ends up having surgery and patient wants to bill his insurance? IS this legal?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      Just to be clear, the same doctor would be the one performing the surgery?

      First, it’s definitely legal, unless Medicare is involved. Since the doctor is ‘out of network’ it shouldn’t be any problem either, to the best of my knowledge none of the insurers require patients or out-of-network doctors to submit all bills (or any bills, for that matter). Probably the easiest thing to do (check with the insurer first, though) would be to have the doctor hand the patient all bills, and the patient can pay in cash those they want to and submit for reimbursement to the insurer for what they want them to cover. That way the doctor never has to deal with the insurer, and the patient is just submitting those bills for reimbursement they want to.

      • Gloria says:

        Yes, it would be the same physician. What if its a Medicare product?

        Thank you.

        • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

          If it’s a Medicare situation, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal. Dumb, I know, but they get real upset when anyone with a Medicare card tries to pay cash for anything.

  21. Gloria says:

    Sean,

    A patient has BCBS AZ and a Medicaid plan as a secondary, we are not contracted with any AZ Medicaid plan but we are contracted with patient’s primary. Can the physician deny services since the physician isn’t contracted with patient’s secondary? I believe have to see patient since we are contracted with BCBS AZ and summit an authorization for patient’s secondary. Either get a denial or approval from the secondary. Now, if the secondary denies is patient responsible for any ded/coinsur/oop from their primary insurance?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      Sorry, not much I can offer on this, probably need to consult an attorney familiar with provider contracts in Arizona. I’ll just say it’s messes like this that hopefully will make more doctors realize just going cash-only is the best option!

  22. Marcia says:

    I was told I was covered for preventative care (pap and mammo) by my insurance carrier. Then after the visits I found out I wasn’t because my plan was grandfathered. I was amazed that the office visit for the pap alone was $391. My insurance applied the whole amount to deductible. No contracted amount even though the doctor was in network. I called the doctor’s office, and was told had I said I was self pay, there would have been a 40% discount. The office says they can’t do anything now to rebill it as self pay. Is there any one that I can contact in regards to this? Isn’t this illegal to have two different charges?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      This is pretty common, and legal. Once you tell your doctor you’re covered by a certain insurer, they’re obligated to charge you that price even if it would be cheaper to pay self-pay rates. It’s part of their agreement with the insurer.

      • D Moll says:

        Is that allowed by insurance contracts to charge self-pay LESS than what the insurance would be charge, and then with high deductibles, STILL pay higher than self-pay (usual and customary?)?

        • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

          Yes, it’s all a matter of the specific language of the contract, but I’m not aware of anything contractually (and certainly not legally) that requires cash patients to pay more than insured patients.

  23. C.J. says:

    Now, however, enters electronic medical record, which shares across the board your personal information. I see that causing issues for people who would rather self-pay and another tricky way around people who claim to be, no?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      Potentially, but I don’t think electronic medical records currently have insurance information, but it’s not really an area I’m that familiar with.

      • Derek says:

        I work for an EHR company. Just because the records can be shared with everyone, does not mean they actually are. If your doctor sends a prescription to CVS, many times they still have to collect all the insurance information from you. Either because the doctor did not send it, or they want to double check.

  24. J.M says:

    I stumbled across this forum because after a recent experience, I went searching for answers. I went in for a CT and they knew I had insurance. However, the very nice lady at the imaging place presented me with a “self-pay” option. Pay me $413.00 cash today, or I can bill your insurance for you and it will apply to your deductible. I just sat there like an idiot looking at her for a minute. Being blessed with excellent health for the past 55 years, this was something brand new and honestly shocking to me. I said, um..how much would you bill my insurance? She tells me $4,651.00!!! Of which I would end up owing $3,000.00 after deductibles and all. HUH?
    Of course I handed her a credit card and steamed about it all weekend!! How can that be legal? Seriously? If they can still make money with a $400 CT, WHY would they bill the insurance $4,000?? I still can’t believe it. Hence all the exclamation points. This is just not right – scummy!!! The price should be the price, period!! No wonder our insurance rates are so high. Isn’t there anything we can do about this? If we get a movement going, sign me up!!

    • LanceCucumber says:

      Your insurance most likely would not pay them the difference, and you would most likely not be charged more than the self pay amount.

      They may charge 4651.00, but they charge every insurance that amount. When the contracted rates kick in, they are probably looking at $200-$500 depending on what scan type for a CT.

      Your insurance may be able to give you a quote in advance if they offer a pricing tool, but next time just call the billing department, and ask them for the “contracted rate” if they are saying they have no way of telling you that, they are flat out lying. I manage a MRI center, and we make it a point to be upfront with our patients before they come in.

  25. Brenda says:

    How can it possibly be legal to have a law (ACA) that now requires all Americans to carry health insurance when we can get lower prices by not using it? I’ve experienced similar situations to those in the other comments and wondered “Why do I pay for expensive insurance when it would be cheaper to pay out of pocket?” Because we are REQUIRED TO PAY FOR IT. Some might say – Go to a high deductible plan. We have and it is only about $100/month less than the other plan so we aren’t saving that much money on it. We can’t go to a catastrophic only plan because Obamacare no longer allows that for anyone over 30. Seriously – how is it legal to force me to buy a product that makes all of my out of pocket costs go up?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      That’s a good question!

      Sean

    • LanceCucumber says:

      Because its a scam! Point blank period!

      The ACA gutted plans, raised rates, and shifted responsibility to the patients. Seriously I have seen 5-10k deductible plans w 50% coverage after deductible met. I mean WTF?

      Don’t have insurance ask them for the Medicare rates. Seriously gashed providers again with a 21% cut in reimbursement for the 2nd year in a row. MRI in 2007 was around 500 in Florida w Medicare, now about $225.

    • Derek says:

      It’s because no one advocates for the patients. Health insurance companies, and even providers all have people lobbying and negotiating for them. Patients have no one on their side. Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is just fluff. It does not really help anyone. Everyone now has very high deductible plans, but no one can afford the deductibles. How does a catastrophic plan help an impoverished person when they have to pay 100% of a $12,500 deductible before it covers anything. Sure they only pay $100/month for that plan, but that’s $100 they could use elsewhere, when paying the deductible would only sink them financially.

    • Mike Samberg says:

      Well Congress writes the “laws” so they are all legal as long as they don’t conflict with the Constitution.

      Most people cannot afford massive medical bills, so if they don’t carry coverage who do you suppose pays for the bills? Either the provider/hospital eats the cost (charity care) which is passed on to other patients as added costs or the government pays part of the costs. So when you go without insurance and “pay-as-you-go” the honorable thing to do would be to sign a do-not-resuscitate and no-emergency-care waiver (if you are unable to pay). That way you don’t risk leeching off the system.

      Otherwise the smart thing to do is sign up for healthcare and quit complaining about a healthcare law (ACA) which is helping millions of people get affordable healthcare.

      • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

        Mr. Samberg, I’d suggest you check out this site and others and you’ll learn why your comments simply aren’t grounded in reality. As I and countless others can attest, there are viable alternatives to the dominant third party payer system.

  26. ron says:

    it’s cheaper cash because insurance never pay doctors the full amount, which is why doctors have to overcharge the insurance. insurance may reimburse the doctor 75% of what they ask for, but this rate totally depends on the insurance, which often makes this a gamble for doctors. and I am not even talking about waiting for months until the payment arrives. no wonder that many doctors charge less if they can get it cash and don’t have to deal with that insurance crap.
    With hospitals it’s even worse: insurance may only pay the hospital 10% or less of what they ask for, which is why a procedure that costs 300$ cash may very well have an insurance price of 3000%. It’s the ridiculous insurance system, not the doctors trying to cheat patients.

  27. Ann Day Wills says:

    I have been asking for the cash price for a few years and paying it rather than using my insurance. It is always less expense. Recently, I was denied the ability to pay the lower quoted cash price and was told I had to use my insurance. I have contacted the CA Medical Board and the California Department of Insurance. No one can help me. I understand that I must legally have insurance, but as a consumer I absolutely should have the right to chose to use my insurance or not or how to pay for a goods or service, especially if there is a lower cost option. I don’t understand how legally anyone can be prevented from paying a lower cash price and be forced to pay more for the same procedure. If you go to a mental health care provider, they make sure you have the choice to pay cash and not use insurance in order to prevent certain diagnoses from entering your permanent record. How can if be different for those providers? Can you point me in the right direction? I’m not sure how to challenge this and would like to pursue it. Thank you for your time.

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      I would guess your doctor has a contract that requires them to charge the ‘negotiated’ rate if they know you’re insured, does your doctor (or really, the billing person) know you’re insured?

      • Ann Day-Wills says:

        Yes, they know my insurance plan. I didn’t realize having insurance forces you to use it. Again, mental health providers ensure you understand the implications of using your insurance rather than paying cash. It seems that these contracts should be illegal.

  28. t says:

    As so many policies are being sold with ‘narrow networks’ it is easy to say you believe you are not covered. I think patients have to get wise to the greedy doctor scams…I had a recent situation where I saw a specialist for 10 minutes. Scam 1- ask what medical facilities the Dr actually has there, I quickly learned this was just a room and the actual procedure I need can’t be performed there. Scam 2- yes we take your insurance…how much if you don’t $100…then I get a bill for the amount the Dr wanted to bill insurance $320…
    I checked again and office is in-network so not sure why they didn’t bill insurance but I can only assume the insurance company would negotiate down the claim ( $2000/ hour? Hardly surprising) so this is a sneaky attempt to maximise profit.
    I plan to call the Dr office and negotiate the bill down to the original $100 at most, or report the whole situation to my state insurance commission ( on every statement)
    I presume all these corrupt tactics are well known, but if the agencies start getting written complaints en masses they can hardly ignore it!
    As an aside the actual doctor seemed so caring and normal…beware charming people I find so often. My grumpy GP has never once tried to exploit me!

  29. t says:

    As for the suggestion about just don’t pay- a company once sent me a bill I questioned: I simply didn’t owe them the money. A spurious less than $200 ( No explanation) was passed on to a collections agency. I tried to resolve it via the credit reporting agencies ( hint- another scam industry) Wasted a bit of money- got nowhere. But I felt strongly I should not pay a bill I don’t owe.
    The ‘debt’ gets sold on to weirder ‘busineses’ posing as salespeople, id theft, one call w as purely menacing…finally a call from a man who said how do I propose to pay my debts…I told him I don’t have any unpaid debts…then calls start again ‘you have won a prize’…but guess what- give your credit card number to win. Unbelievable that these are legal business practices, but they are apparently. Or no one can do anything about them.

    Sorry-junk follows as editor didn’t work.
    menacing…then finally after several years of periodic harrassment an actual call from someone who asked me how I proposed to settle this ‘debt’. I said I

  30. Tammie says:

    Can you pay as an uninsured and bill your insurance company on your own?

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      If the provider is out-of-network, yes. If you’re insured though and the provider is part of the network, the insurance company is likely to throw a fit and require you to pay the negotiated rate, even if it’s higher. Makes no sense to me, but that’s the way they operate.

  31. withheld says:

    Actually, the practice you are describing is known as “balance billing” and it is illegal in all 50 states, I hate to tell you under the ACA. That’s the point of insurance. So if you are covered by the federal supplement, you shouldn’t have a copay, and you are not a cash patient, you are covered by the governement’s insurance. But if you’re not eligible for that care, then you are covered by your employer, or you have to provide your own care, and then you should be able to make the copayments, since I’m single and wouldn’t have to pay for myself unless I earned more than $63,000 per year. Doubt I’ll be paying for my health care any time soon in this lifetime, only problem is that the state of California wants to come after me for all the bills they’ve paid on my behalf and take it all back if I’m fortunate enough to live past my 55th birthday~~enough to make me want to commit suicide, but hey…..

  32. Trevor says:

    Today I discussed having my tonsils and adenoids removed at my Ear, Nose and Throat specialists office. Although they could not give me an exact number, they told me to expect the total bill to my insurance company to be in the $12000-14000 range. Even if I had reached my deductible for a calendar year, that leaves me with 20% responsibility: $2400-2800.

    Moot point though, as I no longer work for my old employers and I have no insurance. I was feeling pretty despondent until the lady in the office told me that if I can pay cash before the procedure, they can do a discounted rate of $2250. Thats not my portion, thats the total cost.

    So under my previous insurance I was paying $590/month for the right to be grossly overcharged. Never did I reach an out-of-pocket maximum. By my math over 36 years insured I paid about $165,000 in premiums which in turn paid about $6000 in medical bills for me. And that’s at the higher insured rates.

    It’s all a scam……..just like car insurance. Paid my premium to Nationwide every month since 16. Minimum $150k in premiums paid over 40 years. Had my first claim 2 years ago. Damaged a trailer I backed into, to the tune of $1500 paid by my insurance company. Which raised my rate by $950/year. So even though my premiums already paid for ther claim 100 times, I have to pay them for the accident and then some over the 3 years my rate hike is active for.

    The world would be much better without insurance and credit. Both are systems to suck the money out of the people who don’t have much and blow it into the coffers of the wealthy Barons of Industry.

  33. Joel says:

    I have been billing Insurance Companies for over 30 years. The self pay rates are always up to 3 times or more what the Insurance Company pays. Even if you can negotiate a discount it will not equal what the Insurance will pay.

    For Example Lab Test Self Pay Insurance
    Hemoglobin 70.00 11.00
    CBC 40.00 11.00
    TSH 125.00 24.00
    CMP 62.00 15.00
    Thyroxine 44.00 10.00
    T-3 Free 220.00 25.00
    Total 561.00 98.00
    Even if you have not met your deductable you can only be charged the insured amount unless it is considered Non-Covered.

    If people could pay what the Insurance Companies Pay we would not have a Health Care Crisis.

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      It really depends on whether you are going to a medical provider that caters to self-pay patients. If you aren’t then yes, you can easily pay three times more than what the insurance companies do. If, on the other hand, you go to a cash-only or at least cash-friendly provider, then chances are pretty good that you’ll get at least as good a price as the insurance companies, or at least close to it.

  34. Denny says:

    I use Costco in Oregon and for one of my prescriptions my insurance will only cover 9 pills a month. I need 30 pills a month/one a day/per doctor’s instruction.
    Don’t ask me why insurance gets to set up how much I take. I asked Costco to never use insurance for that prescription, which they do at my request. It’s actually cheaper now than my co-pay. Got to love insurance companies, they at
    are now deciding what kind of drugs I take and how many.

  35. Dr. Herrin says:

    Here is something most are missing. The office that provides a cash discounted price for NOT BILLING INSURANCE actually makes more profit when they collect the lower fee, than when they bill the insurance and collect the higher fee. In 2003 Medicare agreed that it is cheaper for a doctor to see a cash patient than an insurance patient, hence the “cash discount” became acceptable at that time. A doctor’s office spends an incredible amount of money on staff, computers, and software just so they can bill YOUR insurance, whether you have met your deductible or not. The work was already done. Want to revolutionize healthcare, make it illegal for a doctor to bill your insurance. Pay cash and put the burden of insurance reimbursement back on the consumer of the healthcare. If you spend hours filling out paperwork, wait two months to get reimbursed 50% of your charges at the doctor, two things would happen. People would quit paying premiums for terrible insurance, and the cost of healthcare would drop since doctors would not be burdened with billing and collection expenses.

  36. Ed says:

    I have heard of hospitals advertising on the radio up to 50 % discounts on high deductible plans purchased on the ACA health market exchanges. Received brochure in mail today stating what I heard on radio. It’s called the Positive Bill Program according to the brochure. Quoting the brochure, “individuals who are signed up with one of the new Exchanges, yet have a high deductible, will receive a 50 percent discount on services and the full fee will be applied to help meet the deductible.” Nice thing to know if you have a bronze plan with a $5,500 individual/$11,000 family deductible. Do some home work now and know what hospitals offer this in case you need to use them in future.

    • sean@impactpolicymanagement.com says:

      This is interesting, though I’m not sure about the legality of this. I don’t believe a provider can essentially “credit” to an insurance company deductible bills that they don’t intend to collect.

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